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Content ---- ---- I don't know what path it is on and I don't know how fast it will walk on that path. So I have no predictions about that to make. What I do think is that the status quo is a decisive "not good enough". | |} ---- Success in this aspect is stay out of the F2P realm that NCSoft loves to throw games into. | |} ---- Then, yes. I believe it will always remain at least B2P with the cost of the box not being removed. | |} ---- That, my friend, is unknowable and completely unrelated to how well Wildstar does. NCSoft doesn't necessarily send games F2P because the game is failing, it's because the model simply makes more money than a subscription. Wildstar could have five million subs and NCSoft could still send it F2P because they'll make more money. At present, I don't know whose souls were sold to make the game subscription at launch, but NCSoft, now Wildstar or Carbine, is the reason I'm still paying month-to-month rather than going in on the full year. You never know when the hammer will drop or if there's a deal in place to make sure it doesn't. | |} ---- Historically, from my understanding, NCSoft has only sent games F2P that aren't succeeding in the P2P market. Some come out already in this model and some go to it. So if we follow this logic then, for me at least, they have failed to maintain their initial set-up for the game and had to go to a back-up system to try and stay afloat. Correct me if I am wrong here though | |} ---- ---- Because it was not their original model and normally is used as a last ditch ever to save a game | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- The thing that scares me is just because NCSoft knows it was meant to be a niche game does not mean they still won't step in and squish Carbine. O.o | |} ---- it's called adaptation. Switching business models is done by many companies once they find out that the current model is no longer working. Instead of cutting of their product, changes are made to extend the life of the product. Free 2 Play can be implemented in many different ways. Milking people for every nickle and dime is the wrong way, but there's awesome cash shops as well for example that seel exclusive commodities and not make it p2win Calling adaptation of a model "failure" is nothing more then being short-sighted. | |} ---- I believe EQ2 has had 3 or more expansions since going F2P. Not sure I'd consider that move a failure. | |} ---- Yes, you are wrong, unfortunately. Most games were level with their sub systems, but weren't WoW-level. There was a time when anything under several million subscriptions was a "failure", so NCSoft has dropped the guillotine a couple times and sent games F2P. These days, they don't even bother; they just release the game F2P at launch. I was kind of amazed Wildstar was sub at launch, given NCSoft's backing. Again, while subs are better for us as gamers (we spend less on average for the game and can't necessarily buy a massive competitive advantage), the idea you espouse here... ...as much as I dislike the method, isn't strictly true. F2P models have proven you make more money. Every game that went F2P, in trouble or not, started to immediately make more money and continue the trend to this day. Games like EVE Online prove you can survive and thrive on 500k subscriptions. Hell, my character's name is on that gaudy, vainglorious monument they built for themselves with their extra money, and they funded three further games on EVE's subscription bucks. "Failure" is a very relative term. Nonetheless, I'd reconsider my options if it went F2P. I'm not averse to people taking a handicap and nickle-and-diming themselves if subs were still available to keep the game as is, but F2P tends to attract a different, younger, less civil sort of gamer. If you think it's negative around here now, wait for it to go F2P and get people who thought 15 dollars a month was too much to spend on a game to show up. | |} ---- Would you be able to provide an example of a game where they have a good cash shop system? I have only personally experienced the more nickle and diming variety and would be very interested in investigating what the alternatives are out there in the MMO world. | |} ---- ---- Ragnarok Europe (the old euRO) has a Cashshop that sold exclusive headgears without them being overpowered. They had nothing that gave a clear advantage. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Egad, people disagree with you. Who would have thought? | |} ---- I don't think people always understand the money for value we get with subs. Your average AAA console game is, what, sixty dollars? That's four months of Wildstar's monthly sub. If anything, it's the box price that seems a bit high, but I always figured it was to cover development so that they wouldn't need 2 million subs at launch to cover the debts. Wildstar is an unknown IP from an unknown company, they're going to need time to develop their brand. Still, 15 bucks a month is a pretty good deal in video games. Games that are nominally free aren't usually very good, and games that don't have a monthly subscription tend to only be good for a few weeks of constant play at best. Meanwhile, I don't think I've ever played an MMORPG for less than four months. It's not bad value. Unfortunately, F2P games are part of that nominally free idea, usually. They know that we don't normally do the math; more people than you'd think will drop a hundred dollars every few months to cut the grind in those games. NCSoft is very well aware of how much money F2P games make by not feeling like an electric bill, despite how much better the sub model is for players themselves. | |} ---- ---- I don't see going F2P as failure.The last MMO I played successfully made that transition and it saved them, providing warm bodies for content, allowing guilds to re-grown, spurring interest in pvp again. If done well, it can be a very good thing for a game. EDIT to add: the game in question continued being a sub based game for all content unlocks, but offered a cash marketplace where F2P players can purchase the DLC (expansion packs) a la carte. F2P players could also purchase additional character slots, additional bank slots, etc. It really felt like a win-win for everyone. Nothing changed for me as a continued subscriber other than there more people playing the game. Previously, I'd have said that the F2P crowd whines more on the forum, but after the last 2 months on Wildstar forums I wouldn't say that. | |} ---- I wouldn't bring up SWTOR in these discussions. Since going F2P, they've made more than they ever made with subscriptions. I give you the top 10 MMORPGs ranked by revenue, according to polygon.com in July of this year (the top four make over 100 million dollars a year): 1. World of Warcraft 2. Lineage 3. TERA: Online 4. Star Wars: The Old Republic 5. Lord of the Rings Online 6. EVE Online 7. Aion 8. Blade and Soul 8. Lineage 2 10 RIFT Weird list, isn't it? World of Warcraft makes about 1 billion dollars according to the article, with 27% coming from microtransactions (270 million from pets, mounts, and service). And EVE online is still hanging in there at 6, even though FFXIV:ARR is nowhere on the list and has more subs. And SWTOR is there at 4, even though it "failed", it's still one of the most profitable entities on our subgenre. | |} ---- Yeah, and how much is a margarita these days? | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Why? WoW has a cash shop now for all kind of vanity items, and it's kept their numbers buoyed while their sub numbers have dropped. I'd hardly call their 7 million sub base a failure because they introduced microtransactions, even though that's a shift in monetary policy. And remember that games with millions of subs have had to go F2P because they aren't paying the bills, but EVE makes more money than almost all of them with 500K accounts, mostly on PLEX sales. Maybe we should talk specifically about Wildstar if/when they go F2P. They certainly haven't yet. Seems just a bit early in its lifetime to hire the piper to play Amazing Grace. | |} ---- I hadn't heard or read that. Do you have a link handy to the source for that? I'm not doubting what you say at all, I'm just really interested in reading it. | |} ---- well unless I make it a very precise discussion people will always take it out of context | |} ---- let me see what I can find, it's been a while since I either heard or read it. Can't guarantee anything :P | |} ---- I can confirm they've said that. Carbine would rather the game shuts down than goes F2P. Which doesn't mean they'll get their wish, or that NCSoft necessarily cares whether the game is successful or not, they only care about how much profit it generates. If NCSoft really thinks they can double their money on Wildstar going F2P, believe me, it doesn't matter whether Wildstar has ten thousand subs or ten million. | |} ---- I don't doubt that, and I'd love to read that article. Do you recall where you saw it? | |} ---- ---- ---- NCSoft is by far one of the most successful businesses in the MMO industry and one of the worst parent companies to have. They are know for their absolutely horrible customer support, known for forcing companies to push out content that is not ready and forcing companies to release games early, known to step in and take over when it might not be warranted and have left a very bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths. Does this mean they aren't successful and don't make money? No. It means they don't care about the consumer and all they care about is seeing more $$. Unfortunately people continue to give them what they want and don't stand up for what they like. Most of their games are Niche and only hold 2-3% of the MMO market, but they have 5-6 games in that aspect thus they as a parent hold 10-18% of the market in MMOs nowadays. They will continue to do what they think is best in their interest and making money and will continue to see success from lack luster games because of it. | |} ---- I believe it was an interview with Carbine. I can try to find it on lunch. I recall them hearing them say it, though. I think it was Gaffney. Hey, I'm a reasonable guy with a reputation for avoiding hyperbole and vitriol. Even I think NCSoft is like Al Pacino's Satan from The Devil's Advocate. | |} ---- ---- Nott, NCSoft doesn't give a damn what we want and like. They also don't care what we stand up for. All they care about is if they can replace every one of us that leaves with two of us that will spend more money in microstransactions. If they can do that, you can shout for whatever you want, they'll wave goodbye when you leave and forget you. Carbine are really our only advocates, here. | |} ---- ---- I think the question is more whether it will happen in 2015 or 2025. We all know MMORPGs don't last forever. | |} ---- ---- That's exactly the point I was trying to make | |} ---- Oddly, EVE and FFXI are older, and they're both still around as profitable sub games. And those games are a lot more niche than Wildstar is. They also don't have NCSoft looking over their shoulders, though. This is America! I'm sure as Hell not going to make it to 2025. I'd be 40 by then! Sure as Hell would be disappointed with myself if I lived that long with a City Barbeque just down the street from where I work. | |} ---- ---- ---- I read the articles where Gaffney said that they don't like hte variance of what each player gets in f2p games - they want the same experience for everyone included in one price, rather than limiting certain folks game experience, or having 10% of the players paying for the other 90% to play for free. (I'm paraphrasing heavily probably, but my point is I have read the bits where he discusses business models and even the part where he says that things aren't always what they seem - sometimes a "successful" F2P game inst as profitable as it appears or a smaller selling sub-based game with 200,000 subs can be more profitable than a B2P game that sells 6 million boxes given enough time.) I am very interested in their comments that they will shut it down before going F2P and that really concerns me, to be honest. I can't find anything about shutting it down down rather than going F2P, and that's really what I'd like to read. | |} ---- I'm just saying that if NCSoft wants to send us F2P, it will have nothing to do with how well Wildstar is doing, what we want, what we ask for, or even if Wildstar has succeeded or failed. All NCSoft cares about is whether they can make more money with Wildstar as a F2P game. Presently, I'd think not. We're all pretty adamant that we're not an F2P crowd for the most part and, let's face it, CREDD sales have made sure Wildstar doesn't necessarily need subscriptions. They get to keep their cake and eat it, too, having a sub-only game that makes money on the side through sorta-micros. EVE Online's been doing it for a decade (it's why they're on that list at #6). Hard to say how much money Carbine and NCSoft made on CREDD, but a lot of people have CREDD out to next year. If they go F2P, how many people will still buy and sell it? | |} ---- Man, us Ohio people.... Why are there so many of us on Wildstar's forums? | |} ---- How many people would they have wanting their heads as well. CREDD is the primary model it seems for their subs and if they go F2P what would it do to CREDD? They'd have to come out with a CREDD shop in game or something that players could spend CREDD on, but they couldn't guarantee success from that. Their current model "seems" to be working (since we haven't seen any true numbers yet) | |} ---- we're a swing state, we love to debate :P | |} ---- It could be that CREDD is the saving grace of Wildstar if it's really suffering. Technically speaking, they can swing harder than their subs would normally let them. Lots of hardcore gamers that do play a lot are playing essentially for free, lots of people who want their in-game money and have a lot to spend can get it, and Carbine makes an extra five bucks in the process. It lowers the numbers they need to maintain to remain solvent. And, best of all, it gives NCSoft an incentive not to drop the F2P hammer. | |} ---- Plus, I think if they do go to some form of F2P, it would make sense to do a hybrid model where subscribers (including folks playing through use of CREDD) get free access to DLC (content Drops) as long as they remain subbed, with the F2P crowd either having to buy the Drops a la carte or not having access to the content. That type of hybrid model will allow the current CREDD system to remain intact, because nothing would change for folks that chose to remain subbed, and the F2P folks that come into the game could either accept playing the base game or buy content drops as their progression advanced to that level (and they could even sub or buy CREDD.) | |} ---- If I recall I am contractually obligated to greatly dislike all buck-eyes (We are! ;3).... But I make a hefty exception for you all... Honestly Nott, why is F2P the worst thing? I still play SWTOR, and it's still... gasp.... fun. They keep adding new content; just added a great housing system... at least it would be great if it was half of what W*'s is... but GSF is really fun. They also made 200+ million off it last year... so I would never in a million years call SWTOR in its current state a 'failure'. The cash shop isn't really B2W either since having a sub gives you shop currency; the only folks who lose out are the true free players. As long as W* is getting new content and running I consider it a win. In my book, the only failure is when your game is no longer online (e.g. WAR). Your mileage may vary, but I seriously don't get all the 'failure' talk which is by and large arbitrary. | |} ---- ---- Publishers don't drop a AAA budget on a niche title. Regarding NCSoft knowing, color me extremely skeptical. I believe that Carbine thought they had broad appeal, IIRC even Gaffney said they had something for everybody. They goofed. RNG, punishing, unrewarding, coordinate crafting, crap CS are a total turn off. Heck, even raiders are saying they need less punishing content when they're not raiding. | |} ---- Between CREDD and box sales, I don't think the initial investment is something NCSoft is too worried about. I'd imagine they made that back. And I highly doubt NCSoft is very concerned with if they've made "enough" money. | |} ---- See: SWTOR | |} ---- ---- I figured the 'We Are..' would give away my alma matter :P Still stand by my post though... If W* shutters any time soon i'll count it a failure. As long as I can play the game it's a win for me. | |} ---- Unfortunately, not everyone knows everything about the rivalry, myself included. Which is sad, considering... From the library over the roof, this is how close the stadium was to Knowlton Hall, the primary building for the school of architecture. I spent four years in this building. I never saw an OSU game. Architecture ain't a joke at OSU. | |} ----